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General => Music Discussion => Topic started by: 夜の女王様 on October 11, 2007, 03:21:04 PM



Title: What Visual Kei truly is...
Post by: 夜の女王様 on October 11, 2007, 03:21:04 PM
... I don't know anymore.

I used to think Visual Kei concerned only to visual: So any rock band wearing glamorous costumes were part of the movement (like MALICE MIZER), and refused to accept it could be a musical genre. But I wasn't really into bands from (just to quote the most famous) labels like Key Party and Matina, having just heard very little of these bands works: Eliphas Levi, Aliene Ma'riage, Aioria (from Loop Ash label), Fatima, La Feerie and Noir Fleurir.

And I thought I was a VK addicted, listening to bands that don't seem to fit with this tag properly, according to what I've been reading, although 90% of the texts available on the internet are... poor. Very poor.

Just fashion or a musical genre?


Title: Re: What Visual Kei truly is...
Post by: CINEMA_BIZARRE on October 11, 2007, 03:52:19 PM
musical genre


Title: Re: What Visual Kei truly is...
Post by: lovetrick on October 11, 2007, 05:12:20 PM
Both.


Title: Re: What Visual Kei truly is...
Post by: カレン on October 11, 2007, 06:54:00 PM
Neither, it's a live scene. Just like punk was.


Title: Re: What Visual Kei truly is...
Post by: 夜の女王様 on October 11, 2007, 07:28:29 PM
musical genre

Both.

Neither, it's a live scene. Just like punk was.

That's why I can't make up my mind. Please explain yours points of view.


Title: Re: What Visual Kei truly is...
Post by: カレン on October 11, 2007, 08:00:21 PM
Okay this is going to be long-winded...

You can argue it's a fashion, but there are multiple types of fashion styles, not to mention the "non-visual" style is becoming more prevalent (think heavier bands like lynch. and girugamesh).

You can also argue it's a genre, but there are multiple types of sounds. It was a genre at one time, which is why the trend nowadays is to call it visual indies, because visual kei actually is considered a genre. Those would be your bands like X Japan, Luna Sea, Buck-Tick, etc. But the bands nowadays are obviously different.

So if it's neither, it's better to call it a scene. Example one: Bands like bis and The Skull Fuck Revolvers. They are punk bands, pure and simple. But they are part of the visual scene because they choose to be. Example two: Major bands like SID who have radically changed their look and sound, yet still are sold in visual CD shops and are invited to play visual event concerts.

Basically, no matter what you look or sound like, if you call yourself visual, you're a visual band. Period.


Title: Re: What Visual Kei truly is...
Post by: Culo on October 12, 2007, 12:33:35 AM
Yeah it's more like a scene.
It's not a genre because they mix musical genres. It's not a fashion style because they mix fashion styles. Although lately most new VK bands look like Barbie dolls and I don't get it, but whatever.

visual kei, especially from the 90s, obviously had a sound going on... it can't be considered a musical genre though.

ps: buck-tick, luna sea, and X sound nothing alike XD in the 80s VK was more divided between heavy metal bands and post-punk/new wave bands.


Title: Re: What Visual Kei truly is...
Post by: 凸(。☉౪ ⊙。)▁▇▀▀▀~~~卍 on October 12, 2007, 12:40:25 AM
its

scene (only in vkei u get haifu etc) + fashion (only in vkei everyone dresses like trannies) + music (sounds different to all other types / so various)


Title: Re: What Visual Kei truly is...
Post by: Culo on October 12, 2007, 03:20:47 AM
its

scene (only in vkei u get haifu etc) + fashion (only in vkei everyone dresses like trannies) + music (sounds different to all other types / so various)

haifu? you mean live-only CD's? if that's it, many independent bands from other countries (Argentina for instance, which is where I live) does the same thing. maybe not as regularly/systematic, but well VK is japanese after all.

looking like trannies: not everyone, look at the kurofuku bands for example.

sounds different to all other types: that depends on the band


Title: Re: What Visual Kei truly is...
Post by: Kyο on October 12, 2007, 05:32:39 AM
I'd say it's both fashion and genre.

During the late 90s/early 00s it seemed more of a genre though, since all the bands had a certain 'sound' to them. It's hard to explain, but I noticed many of them start out with the same kind of intro and quick, forceful melody (the songs Ash by Dir en grey, Dying Message by Gu:Laymu, and Vice&Nervous by Vice†risk come to mind right away..they all have such similar beginning melodies). At the same time, a lot of the indies bands would parade around in what looked like their moms' dresses and sisters' makeup/crazy accessories.

Now, vk bands have a wider variety of sounds (though some may argue, 'Grr! All vk sounds the same!' Just compare UnsraW, STELLA..., and hm.. Vidoll for example..they're pretty unique with style/sound. o_o So some bands sound similar but there are quite a few really unique ones. Nowadays there's waaaay more emphasis on appearance though (the press-on nails with crazy detail from Cure come to mind here). As for the bands who wear makeup and men's clothes (Sadie, etc), who knows that to call them. xD Still Visual indies? They're more part of the genre sense I guess.


Title: Re: What Visual Kei truly is...
Post by: klavierbarrette on October 12, 2007, 05:50:13 AM
i don't think you necessarily have to dress up very girlish (or at least just have one 'female' in the band) to be 'visual'.  i would just call that more a gothic lolita or oshare thing.  a lot of nagoya, eroguro, and angura kei bands are more 'manly'

but i agree it's more of a scene.


Title: Re: What Visual Kei truly is...
Post by: Alice the Sister on October 13, 2007, 05:37:40 PM
It's a lot of things. It seems to have a lot of potential to be what one could constitute as a "subculture" or whatever. Which includes the fashion, music, etc etc but it's NOT mutually exclusive in any sorts. Kinda like goth, punk, hip-hop subcultures can be fashion, art, music, etc etc. Visual Kei seems to be more along the lines of that. I can agree that it's a live scene as opposed to a 'musical genre' as Visual Kei bands can range widely between the way they sound. Although there is something that I can't put a finger on, that distinguishes Visual Kei music from other styles, perhaps the aesthetic or the arrangement of instruments is usually consistent for each instrument and all that.

So I guess "Scene" or "subculture" or whatever you want to say. It's kinda vast, but you can always usually pin down something thats VK or related to it.



Title: Re: What Visual Kei truly is...
Post by: Yumeko on October 13, 2007, 08:54:02 PM
it's not a musical genre; too many VK bands all have such different sounds; you can't compare them.  Like how in the world could you compare alice nine. to Buck-Tick to Merry to D?  You can't.  To me visual kei is a style.  That doesn't mean just in reference of fashion; but a way the artists present their music.  I think Miyavi's definition and description of VK is best; you can read it in interviews on Jrockrevolution.com.  But he seems to view VK as a way of life; sort of like goths; it's not a fashion or music; it's a bunch of things.


Title: Re: What Visual Kei truly is...
Post by: Schwarze Sonne on October 17, 2007, 08:00:10 AM
It has the word VISUAL in it's name. I think it's pretty obvious that it's a fashion.
If it's a MUSIC genre then I need some description of this genre's sound.

Put Black Metal corpsepaint on a pop-punk band and they're still pop-punk.


Title: Re: What Visual Kei truly is...
Post by: godhunters on October 17, 2007, 08:56:01 AM
Visual Kei is a unique theme given to this type of band for it fashion craze musical scene just like norwegian black metal for black metal frm norway......

it is just a phrase......or tag line......


Title: Re: What Visual Kei truly is...
Post by: Schwarze Sonne on October 17, 2007, 09:11:03 AM
Black metal actually describes a music style though. If some pop punk band starts singing about Pagan or Satanic themes and wears Black metal corpsepaint they're still pop punk. If some black metal band starts singing about skateboarding, Christianity, and relationships while wearing vans and other skate clothing, they're still a black metal band.

Music genres are meant to describe just that, music. So that people who discover a band they like the sound of can go look at the genre and use it to find other bands of the same sound. That's all genres are for. And if Visual Kei does not have a distinct sound, then it's not a musical genre.


Title: Re: What Visual Kei truly is...
Post by: Vessicator on October 17, 2007, 07:28:22 PM
Oh shi- I didn't elaborate.

Some band said something about visual-kei being a 'band genre' rather than a music genre; a style for the band while retaining an open mind to all sorts of music. Most of, if not all vk bands, know by now that vk does not define what kind of music you make. It should be more associated with glam rock (its derivation), though vk newfags fuss over this kind of nonsense.

Fags? In a sense, yes. Pioneering music? Somewhat.

bis? Oshare-kei, not visual-kei.

SID? lawlz i dunno Mao said some shit about them going to J-pop.


Title: Re: What Visual Kei truly is...
Post by: カレン on October 17, 2007, 09:40:04 PM
Um, have you seen a bis concert? They're not oshare. They're a punk band. They never play with oshare bands, they play with bands like lynch. and girugamesh. If you're basing on looks, well that's like calling Lupo Label an oshare band, lulz.


Title: Re: What Visual Kei truly is...
Post by: Vessicator on October 17, 2007, 11:21:07 PM
wait. you said that bis is punk, yet telling me that they play with bands like lynch. and girugamesh? or do you say that because you're from germany and went to that one bigass concert?

you're not making any sense. i'm basing the assumption that, because they dress like oshare-kei artists would and sound like oshare-kei artists would.

it's like saying Blink-182 is punk. That's one of the worst misnomers that you can state.


Title: Re: What Visual Kei truly is...
Post by: カレン on October 17, 2007, 11:43:47 PM
No, I'm not from Germany, I went to their lives in Japan. And actually yes, Blink-182 is punk, believe it or not. Pop-punk is a form of punk. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pop_punk

They sound nothing like oshare. They might have back when they were on PSC but they don't anymore. And their concerts are about as close to punk as you can get in the visual scene.

And yes, I'm comparing them to lynch. in particular. Hardcore is also a sub-genre of punk.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hardcore_punk

Wiki is your friend.


Title: Re: What Visual Kei truly is...
Post by: Quorthon on October 18, 2007, 12:27:14 AM
I totally agree with Karen, visual kei is totally a scene, not a genre.



Title: Re: What Visual Kei truly is...
Post by: Yumeko on October 18, 2007, 02:23:46 AM
Some band said something about visual-kei being a 'band genre' rather than a music genre; a style for the band while retaining an open mind to all sorts of music. Most of, if not all vk bands, know by now that vk does not define what kind of music you make. It should be more associated with glam rock (its derivation)...

I agree.  You said it better than me.  'band genre'...good term.  And yah; I've always related VK to glam rock too; so I agree with you there again.


Title: Re: What Visual Kei truly is...
Post by: 凸(。☉౪ ⊙。)▁▇▀▀▀~~~卍 on October 18, 2007, 02:33:05 AM
 :-\


Title: Re: What Visual Kei truly is...
Post by: Vessicator on October 18, 2007, 05:15:57 AM
No, I'm not from Germany, I went to their lives in Japan. And actually yes, Blink-182 is punk, believe it or not. Pop-punk is a form of punk. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pop_punk

They sound nothing like oshare. They might have back when they were on PSC but they don't anymore. And their concerts are about as close to punk as you can get in the visual scene.

And yes, I'm comparing them to lynch. in particular. Hardcore is also a sub-genre of punk.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hardcore_punk

Wiki is your friend.

Oh god. There's a correlation between pop-punk (paradox) and punk, but to be so ignorant as to call it 'punk' is to insult every punk band that has ever existed.  And no matter how much Travis Barker or Tom DeLonge stated it in their truckload-of-fail concerts back in Enema Of the State, they're not punk. Not back then, not during 'Take Off Your Pants and Jacket', not when they remade all their old generic shit and placed a new, shittier album cover, and not when they broke up and formed their newer, shittier band 'Plus-41'. If you've listened to their songs and still believe Blink-182 was a 'form of punk', then please shoot yourself in the name of Iggy Pop.

The only way I can see that you think bis is "pop-punk" is from their cover of Rancid's 'Ruby Soho'. Other than that, they're pretty pop-rock (eg. SEASON'S, Color of Mind, S.S.I.) It's as if I said "Jimmy Eat World is punk" or "AFI is punk". If you want to go ahead and say "well AFI USED to be punk/hardcore and Jimmy Eat World is emo, which is a TYPE of punk", then you're just going out of your way to fuck up music genres just to win an argument. If you have such an existentialist view on music, then technically everything here is a 'type' of African American folk music.

And lynch., hardcore?

Get out. Just go. I would've at least understood had you said something like 'metal' or 'screamo'.


Title: Re: What Visual Kei truly is...
Post by: カレン on October 18, 2007, 05:30:30 AM
Nah, I won't get out. I love arguing with people. It's like my only form of entertainment.

A genre is only a construction anyway.

Continue on with your previous discussion. It's obvious that no one is right. Ever.


Title: Re: What Visual Kei truly is...
Post by: Tsunetako on October 18, 2007, 05:48:48 AM
We all know who the true punk band is: Lareine.


Title: Re: What Visual Kei truly is...
Post by: Vessicator on October 18, 2007, 05:56:52 AM
Nah, I won't get out. I love arguing with people. It's like my only form of entertainment.

A genre is only a construction anyway.

Continue on with your previous discussion. It's obvious that no one is right. Ever.

No. I'm right.

I don't understand how you can love arguing when you fail so badly at it.

But thanks for showing us just how badly you can fail, even WITH the assistance of Wikipedia.


Title: Re: What Visual Kei truly is...
Post by: カレン on October 18, 2007, 06:00:04 AM
Haha, I don't care if you're right. Just like I don't care if I'm wrong. That's the whole point of this thread anyway, right? Opinions, I has them.


Title: Re: What Visual Kei truly is...
Post by: Vessicator on October 18, 2007, 06:15:40 AM
But you cared enough to tell me that bis is not oshare-kei, and even go out of your way to look up wikipedia articles just to show me that you seem to know a little bit about using the 'Search' function to bring up worthless facts that have no relevance with your argument whatsoever. Note that I did not say anything about 'categorizing music'.

Fail harder plz.

(http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p306/charlesbixnood/1189120479146.jpg)

yup.


Title: Re: What Visual Kei truly is...
Post by: カレン on October 18, 2007, 06:19:03 AM
Okay so you explained what punk is. Then explain what oshare is and why bis falls under such a description.

Please enlighten me.

Oh and could you also maybe tell me why bands like Van Halen and Bon Jovi are considered metal? Never quite understood that either.

I mean, since I'm so dumb and all, I'd really like to know.


Title: Re: What Visual Kei truly is...
Post by: Kyο on October 18, 2007, 06:28:11 AM
lol comparing bands!
bis ≠ lynch.

Subgenres suck big balls. Apparently a subgenre of the hardcore punk subgenre is Christian Hardcore.
And nowhere is lynch. present over on this here list: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_hardcore
Wikipedia is amazing, it seriously must have all the information in the whole entire world.

We all know who the true punk band is: Lareine.

Oh yes. Malice Mizer were quite the punk band as well. Excuse me while I do some hardcore dancing to Bois de Merveilles.


Title: Re: What Visual Kei truly is...
Post by: Vessicator on October 18, 2007, 06:33:05 AM
Okay so you explained what punk is. Then explain what oshare is and why bis falls under such a description.

Please enlighten me.

Oh and could you also maybe tell me why bands like Van Halen and Bon Jovi are considered metal? Never quite understood that either.

I mean, since I'm so dumb and all, I'd really like to know.

http://wiki.theppn.org/bis

Now get out.

Also: Bon Jovi/Van Halen=/= metal

more like glam metal.

Also: lynch.=nagoya-kei.

NOW get out.


Title: Re: What Visual Kei truly is...
Post by: カレン on October 18, 2007, 06:38:23 AM
No, I was expecting more of a reaction like before, where you actually... explained stuff. I appreciated that, gaining knowledge you know.

No one is an expert in everything. That's why people live on generalizations that are usually wrong. Oh noez, everyone is dumb.

And ObscureWarumono, everyone knows Malice Mizer is a goth band, duh.


Title: Re: What Visual Kei truly is...
Post by: Vessicator on October 18, 2007, 06:42:36 AM
If you don't know, then don't try to argue, then dismiss your argument when you find out that it has flaws in it.


Title: Re: What Visual Kei truly is...
Post by: Kyο on October 18, 2007, 06:48:34 AM
And ObscureWarumono, everyone knows Malice Mizer is a goth band, duh.

LOL.
Lareine is not punk at all.
Malice Mizer is not punk at all.

sar·casm      /ˈsɑrkæzəm/ [sahr-kaz-uhm] –noun
1.   harsh or bitter derision or irony.
2.   a sharply ironical taunt; sneering or cutting remark: a review full of sarcasms.
[Origin: 1570–80; < LL sarcasmus < Gk sarkasmós, deriv. of sarkázein to rend (flesh), sneer; see sarco-]

—Synonyms 1. sardonicism, bitterness, ridicule. See irony1. 2. jeer.

duh xD


Title: Re: What Visual Kei truly is...
Post by: lovetrick on October 18, 2007, 06:52:49 AM
ObscureWarumono, Are you seriously that fucking stupid?


Title: Re: What Visual Kei truly is...
Post by: カレン on October 18, 2007, 06:54:44 AM
LOL, yea, *my* sarcasm, let me show you it...

And Vessicator, I'm dismissing YOUR argument by saying you don't know what oshare is. I already admitted I was wrong. Now it's your turn. But, I guess I shouldn't expect that from anyone on this forum :)


Title: Re: What Visual Kei truly is...
Post by: 凸(。☉౪ ⊙。)▁▇▀▀▀~~~卍 on October 18, 2007, 06:56:34 AM
music is music, fuck genres in the ass!

all that matters is if it sounds good


Title: Re: What Visual Kei truly is...
Post by: Vessicator on October 18, 2007, 07:00:52 AM
Dismissing my argument on what grounds? That I was too lazy to type up my own assessment of the term 'oshare-kei' and give a summation of musical kinks that separates it from visual-kei? I'm simply doing what you're doing.
'Gaining knowledge', lol. That's a good one, even for you.

(http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p306/charlesbixnood/1191019832474.jpg)

Because that was necessary.


Title: Re: What Visual Kei truly is...
Post by: カレン on October 18, 2007, 07:07:48 AM
Hiding your own stupidity behind macros, classy.

Once again, opinion. End of story. Until you can factually prove what a genre is, I could care less what you think.


Title: Re: What Visual Kei truly is...
Post by: Tsunetako on October 18, 2007, 07:11:10 AM
I love this forum.


Title: Re: What Visual Kei truly is...
Post by: カレン on October 18, 2007, 07:11:44 AM
Yep, so do I. Always good for a laugh.


Title: Re: What Visual Kei truly is...
Post by: Vessicator on October 18, 2007, 07:14:32 AM
Hiding your own stupidity behind macros, classy.

Once again, opinion. End of story. Until you can factually prove what a genre is, I could care less what you think.

lol how do I factually proved what a genre is?

First you use wiki as a source for reference, and now you're discrediting its validity?

What a hypocrite.


Title: Re: What Visual Kei truly is...
Post by: 凸(。☉౪ ⊙。)▁▇▀▀▀~~~卍 on October 18, 2007, 07:17:26 AM
there would be no argument if there was no such thing as a woman.


Title: Re: What Visual Kei truly is...
Post by: カレン on October 18, 2007, 07:18:44 AM

lol how do I factually proved what a genre is?

Exactly my point. And um... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BIS_%28band%29

SHIT, CONFLICTING FACTS ON THE INTERNETS WHAT DO I DOOO1

Ignore them? What I think is a certain genre is different from what you think is a certain genre. Once again, which is the whole point of this thread I believe. Thanks for the healthy discussion, I sure was bored.


Title: Re: What Visual Kei truly is...
Post by: Kyο on October 18, 2007, 07:26:45 AM
ObscureWarumono, Are you seriously that fucking stupid?

Yes I am thank you for noticing.
Are you seriously that fucking perceptive?


Title: Re: What Visual Kei truly is...
Post by: 凸(。☉౪ ⊙。)▁▇▀▀▀~~~卍 on October 18, 2007, 07:28:56 AM
just when i thought the arguing was over...


Title: Re: What Visual Kei truly is...
Post by: Kyο on October 18, 2007, 07:36:35 AM
just when i thought the arguing was over...

Well I'm done. If I get any rediculous replies, oh well,  they'll be taken care of in the morning.
For now, my energy drink has worn off and I'm about to crash. T-T
-wanders away-


Title: Re: What Visual Kei truly is...
Post by: Vessicator on October 18, 2007, 07:40:20 AM
God you fail at detecting sarcasm.

The wiki article has major errors in it and your interpretation of bis's band/music genre conflicts with the article itself. You said that bis moved from 'visual-kei to punk', but the article states that bis is a visual-kei band.


I categorize bis's genre based on the albums that I listened to (see "The only way I can see that you think bis is "pop-punk" is from their cover of Rancid's 'Ruby Soho'. Other than that, they're pretty pop-rock (eg. SEASON'S, Color of Mind, S.S.I.)") and using other bands as reference, like Ellegarden, Kra, and Henzel. I observe from their band setup to their music lyrics to their bass-lines and guitar riffs and obvious incorporation of Japanese street fashion and point to the fitting genre of oshare-kei.

If you cannot learn to categorize music by ear, or even understand the directly translated definition of 'visual-kei' and 'oshare-kei' then don't try to patronize. You can't show music appreciation, much less indulge as a sophist; you merely attempt to shove your beliefs down someone else's throat until you realize that they (unlike you) have a basis for their argument.

By the time you realize that, you cower back under the haven of 'subjectivity', as you believe the coined genres do not have a concrete definition, and the bands themselves can't be definitively categorized under said genres. Newsflash: they have. This thread is not intended to talk about the meaning of visual-kei, only what individuals THINK visual-kei 'truly is'.

There was no 'healthy discussion', now get the fuck out.


Title: Re: What Visual Kei truly is...
Post by: カレン on October 18, 2007, 07:54:08 AM
Haha, you keep saying get out like I actually care.

Nope, staying.

And if you want to go the fashion route, take a look at how they *actually* dress live, not promo pictures.

Oh and while you're at it, go to a Zoro live. Classic oshare right? Yea, I got my ass kicked in that moshpit.

I also never said they went from 'visual-kei to punk' glad you're reading me correctly. I said they possibly went from oshare to as-punk-as-you're-gonna-get-in-visual, which obviously isn't really punk.


Title: Re: What Visual Kei truly is...
Post by: Vessicator on October 18, 2007, 08:12:45 AM
Actually, yes I have seen pictures from the live. No, they dress more or less the same.

protip: every rock concert has a bunch of stupid kids that spin around pushing each other.

Quote
I said they possibly went from oshare to as-punk-as-you're-gonna-get-in-visual, which obviously isn't really punk.

Then you just defeated your own point. you said bis is punk.

Quote
Um, have you seen a bis concert? They're not oshare. They're a punk band.


Title: Re: What Visual Kei truly is...
Post by: カレン on October 18, 2007, 08:27:43 AM
Well I'm bored. Your backpedaling is only somewhat amusing.

My argument: bis is not oshare
Your argument: bis is not punk

Glad to know we're on the same page.
I stepped back when you explained your argument. So I backed up my side with a false claim, and I admitted to it. So counter my argument. Define oshare and we can call it a night.

I also never tried to shove my beliefs down anyone's throat. If you think that you REALLY need to learn some reading comprehension. It's opinion. People can agree with me, they can agree with you, they can disagree with both of us.

I'm merely trying to uncover the hypocrisy in your own bullshit.


Title: Re: What Visual Kei truly is...
Post by: Vessicator on October 18, 2007, 08:39:24 AM
Try? Then by all means, try all night. I've already done so, more than once I might add.

wiki.theppn.org/Oshare-kei

defined.

But before you go ahead and talk about how this is just 'opinions, opinions', you haven't done one thing to support your claim that bis is not oshare-kei, other than hand out wiki articles. You have not made any personal observations (other than saying you've been to bis concerts, among others, which we're supposed to accept as valid data) about their music or style to prove that they are not oshare-kei. Just remember that stating an opinion goes along the lines of 'I think that this...' (implying that you refer to your personal opinion only, regardless of what other people think), whereas shoving your belief down someone's throat is "No; it's not this, it's..." (implying that another person's opinion is wrong, and that your statement is right).

Reading comprehension? lol


Title: Re: What Visual Kei truly is...
Post by: カレン on October 18, 2007, 09:06:37 AM
Once again you skirt around giving your own definition.

Why bis is not oshare.

1. Your stating that they incorporate Japanese street fashion is not the current sense of what is oshare. Take 176BIZ for example. They are considered oshare because Tara was in Panic Channel. They dress pretty "normal visual" to me. They also sound pretty generic as well. No hints of oshare there. If you base oshare on looks, then you have to say that Lupo Label is oshare, and they are clearly not. By the same token there are people who still call Soroban oshare yet "complain" that Zoro is too "poppy" for them. So which is it, fashion or genre? If it's a fashion then they are far from the oshare look. bis =/= http://zeroasakura.blogcindario.com/ficheros/irokuip.jpg
2. You stated bis were pop-rock, which I can agree with. That does not automatically make them oshare, obviously. Ellegarden is not oshare. If we base it on sound, there is no "oshare" genre. baroque sounds different than Vinett, they sound different than Irokui, and it goes on.
3. So it comes back to my claim that there is neither genre nor fashion in visual, it all has to do with scene. I mentioned before that bis has a tendency to play with lynch., Rentrer en Soi, girugamesh, etc. They also have a tendency to play with 176BIZ, I've noticed. But as far as their lives go, it is not an oshare experience. You do certain furi for certain types of music. Heavier music gets actual headbanging and moshing, generic visual gets generic hand movements, and oshare gets a lot of cutesy dancing. bis falls into the whole headbanging and moshing aspect.

You said that "every rock concert has a bunch of stupid kids that spin around pushing each other." That may be true for overseas, but there's a certain etiquette at certain concerts in Japan. That's how you determine what specific scene a band is in.

No, my experience at lives should not be taken as fact. Use your own experience at lives in Japan, if you ever get the chance. You'll learn pretty quick what visual REALLY is.


Title: Re: What Visual Kei truly is...
Post by: Vessicator on October 18, 2007, 09:50:54 AM
The only reason I 'skirt around' giving my own definition is that simply: why waste time when someone else has already done it? I agree with the definition given at wiki.theppn, so why bother trying to summarize what has already been summarized?

I never said Ellegarden was oshare-kei. They're the 'Sum-41' of j-rock; how is that oshare? bis sounds generic. Their lyrics deal the lighter aspects of everyday life. Their music is optimistic, sometimes uplifting even (Color of Mind, DAYS, Go Akkustik). Simplistic bass-line, bpm significantly slower than your everyday political-punk bands, duration of music usually spanning 5 minutes (give or take), yeah, I'd associate that with oshare-kei.

Whoever consideres 176BIZ oshare because Tara used to be in Panic*CHANNEL is a dumbass. I'm not saying that, if bis isn't oshare in one aspect, it must be another. The band pulls certain characteristics in the visual, musical, and stylistic aspects of Oshare-kei. That they simply play with girugamesh or lynch., or even that you find moshpits and headbanging (makes no fucking sense. how the fuck do you headbang to bis?) as a commodity in their concerts, does not dismiss the possibility that they are oshare-kei. Then again, it doesn't dismiss the possibility that they are not oshare-kei. Honestly though, I don't believe you when you say that people headbang and mosh to bis. If it's true that bis fans do, then I'd decapitate all of them with piano wire.

But all in all, tl;dr. We have concluded that bis is not punk, so I am satisfied, despite the fact that I am an avid bis fan. I listened to (and was a fan of) Blink-182 and a medley of other punk bands; I was wondering just how much bullshit you were going to throw at me.

As for your closing statement, lol to that. I do not prioritize my spending on going to Japan and paying more than my share of money just to see a band perform at a live; I enjoy the music, not the faggotry kthx. Learning what visual REALLY is? what a weeaboo. I accept the fact that I am not Japanese and will never conform to such laughable cultures just for the sake of being accepted.

PS:
(http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p306/charlesbixnood/18567435432.jpg)

that's not (http://zeroasakura.blogcindario.com/ficheros/irokuip.jpg) ?




Title: Re: What Visual Kei truly is...
Post by: カレン on October 18, 2007, 10:09:15 AM
LOL yes I am a weeaboo so I can be accepted by the masses of morons who plague Japanese culture.

FYI I think Japan sucks. I still like the language, which is why I went in the first place. Going to lives was a hobby, not a lifestyle like some people make it. I also like maybe 10 bands tops? Because the rest are fucking terrible. I usually went to lives to laugh about how bad they were.

And yea, they headbang to bis. They also headbang to heidi. I never said the Japanese fangirls make sense. I hate them 99% of the time. I'm just trying to say I think it's funny when people try to justify what they think visual is when they have no experience in it.

"I listened to (and was a fan of) Blink-182 and a medley of other punk bands." So now you're admitting to what you so vehemently denied before? Please, the only one spouting bullshit is you.

If you're so adamant it's just about the music, then why did you attack me over what punk is? If it's *just* music, what does it matter what I consider punk?

Seriously, get over yourself. So you appreciate music? But not the scene? Okay, makes perfect sense to me.


Title: Re: What Visual Kei truly is...
Post by: Vessicator on October 18, 2007, 08:49:07 PM
No, I don't consider Blink-182 punk; I simply made an incorrect statement. So I'll recant and restate it: "I listened to (and was a fan of) Blink-182 and some punk bands".

You tell me that the reason you sparked an argument over the genre of bis is simply for fun. I'm telling you that I attacked your opinion of what punk is simply for fun. Because I think it's funny when people try to justify what they think punk is when they have no experience in it.

Quote
LOL yes I am a weeaboo so I can be accepted by the masses of morons who plague Japanese culture.

FYI I think Japan sucks. I still like the language, which is why I went in the first place. Going to lives was a hobby, not a lifestyle like some people make it. I also like maybe 10 bands tops? Because the rest are fucking terrible. I usually went to lives to laugh about how bad they were.

Wow. Expensive hobby. So you flew out from NJ all the way to Japan to laugh at how terrible the bands were?lol how obvious.

But as for idiot Japanese fangirls headbanging to bis and heidi.? I think I'll only believe it when I see it. Something like this just gives me more reason to hate the scene, but still love the music. <3


Title: Re: What Visual Kei truly is...
Post by: カレン on October 18, 2007, 09:15:54 PM
No, I flew out to Japan to learn Japanese, moron. I went to lives because there was nothing else to do since Tokyo fucking sucks. If I wasn't in school, or hanging out with my host family, or climbing mountains for the hell of it, I went to a few lives. Yea totally just like those people who spent their entire income on travelling around just to see the bands they like. In fact, I'm still doing it. Yep, look at me flying out to Japan for New Year's just to see a single live just like all of LJ. Only... not.

And I'm aware we both started the argument for the sake of arguing. Um, that's what people do on this forum obviously. And I know your type exactly, which is why I called you out on your hypocrisy. Don't claim to know everything when you don't. I already admitted I wasn't schooled in genres. But my argument wasn't about genre, it was about the visual/oshare scene. Which, since you care so little about, you know nothing of it.

But I'm glad to know my finding a flaw in your logic made you retract your entire argument and ONCE AGAIN return to the "punk/not punk" thing. Seriously, try fucking with the other morons on this forum. I'm not one of them, although you may think so.

Oh yea, I TOTALLY LOVES ME SOME ANIMEZ. AND POCKY. HOLY SHIT JAPAN IS AWESOME.

Really, is calling me a weeaboo the best you could come up with? Try a real insult next time, one actually grounded in fact. Oh wait... this is the internet. Obviously you know everything about me from what I write. Of course, how silly of me :)


Title: Re: What Visual Kei truly is...
Post by: lovetrick on October 18, 2007, 09:18:51 PM
Punk is a guy on I Love New York 2

(http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/457/punkoh5.jpg)


Title: Re: What Visual Kei truly is...
Post by: Vessicator on October 18, 2007, 09:38:40 PM
No, I flew out to Japan to learn Japanese, moron. I went to lives because there was nothing else to do since Tokyo fucking sucks. If I wasn't in school, or hanging out with my host family, or climbing mountains for the hell of it, I went to a few lives. Yea totally just like those people who spent their entire income on travelling around just to see the bands they like. In fact, I'm still doing it. Yep, look at me flying out to Japan for New Year's just to see a single live just like all of LJ. Only... not.

And I'm aware we both started the argument for the sake of arguing. Um, that's what people do on this forum obviously. And I know your type exactly, which is why I called you out on your hypocrisy. Don't claim to know everything when you don't. I already admitted I wasn't schooled in genres. But my argument wasn't about genre, it was about the visual/oshare scene. Which, since you care so little about, you know nothing of it.

But I'm glad to know my finding a flaw in your logic made you retract your entire argument and ONCE AGAIN return to the "punk/not punk" thing. Seriously, try fucking with the other morons on this forum. I'm not one of them, although you may think so.

Oh yea, I TOTALLY LOVES ME SOME ANIMEZ. AND POCKY. HOLY SHIT JAPAN IS AWESOME.

Really, is calling me a weeaboo the best you could come up with? Try a real insult next time, one actually grounded in fact. Oh wait... this is the internet. Obviously you know everything about me from what I write. Of course, how silly of me :)

lolwut

I never claimed to know everything. I'm only saying you don't.

I never retracted my entire argument. You even made that point yourself.
Quote
My argument: bis is not oshare
Your argument: bis is not punk

We never argued about the visual/oshare scene. We argued about bis's genre.

Quote
If you think that you REALLY need to learn some reading comprehension.

And now I don't know why you're on the rag about this. If being culturally aware of foreign underground scenes celebrated by teenage girls makes you feel better about yourself, that's fine with me.

Quote
And I know your type exactly, which is why I called you out on your hypocrisy.
Quote
Oh wait... this is the internet. Obviously you know everything about me from what I write.

I don't understand how you can openly contradict yourself and still be sarcastic. Not as stupid as I think you are?

Yeah, my opinion of you was clearly an understatement.


Title: Re: What Visual Kei truly is...
Post by: Do As Eternity 6 on October 18, 2007, 09:55:31 PM
Punk is a guy on I Love New York 2

(http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/457/punkoh5.jpg)

LMFAO XD


Title: Re: What Visual Kei truly is...
Post by: カレン on October 18, 2007, 10:06:44 PM
And now I don't know why you're on the rag about this. If being culturally aware of foreign underground scenes celebrated by teenage girls makes you feel better about yourself, that's fine with me.

Haha okay, your defending of what punk is doesn't make you any less of an ass? Because you obviously know so much about punk, that's important to you. So your understanding of punk somehow trumps my understanding of visual? Right. Keep trying to call me out on my idiocy. You really don't have a claim, by the way.

I never said I know anything about you as a person. I know your internet type of arguing. I see it all the time. Acting like an asshole to make someone else feel stupid so they don't actually have to make any sort of a real point.

You can continue if you want. I'm bored now. Please, make more assumptions about me I'd love to hear them.


Title: Re: What Visual Kei truly is...
Post by: Vessicator on October 19, 2007, 01:30:09 AM
Quote
Acting like an asshole to make someone else feel stupid so they don't actually have to make any sort of a real point.

I've stopped already. That's only what you're doing right now. lol

And I never said anything about my understanding of punk trumping your understanding of visual. But I know punk better than you, and vice versa for visual. You think I'm trying to personally attack you now? Come on. You're not as important as ramrod.

If you want to be victimized, go to the Flame Pit. Your feinted patronization won't help you save face here.


Title: Re: What Visual Kei truly is...
Post by: 「狂気EGOÏSTE」 | Megurujiru on October 20, 2007, 12:01:14 PM
It's more a fashion scene then a musical genre. end of story.


Title: Re: What Visual Kei truly is...
Post by: Vessicator on October 20, 2007, 12:12:30 PM
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Title: Re: What Visual Kei truly is...
Post by: 凸(。☉౪ ⊙。)▁▇▀▀▀~~~卍 on October 20, 2007, 12:19:13 PM
Quote
Acting like an asshole to make someone else feel stupid so they don't actually have to make any sort of a real point.

I've stopped already. That's only what you're doing right now. lol

And I never said anything about my understanding of punk trumping your understanding of visual. But I know punk better than you, and vice versa for visual. You think I'm trying to personally attack you now? Come on. You're not as important as ramrod.

If you want to be victimized, go to the Flame Pit. Your feinted patronization won't help you save face here.

MY NAME :D! You still love me!


Title: Re: What Visual Kei truly is...
Post by: JX on October 21, 2007, 03:44:37 AM
Visual kei was originally a genre, much like "punk" was once a very specific genre and now so much crap falls under the punk label that one "punk" band doesn't sound like another.  (If you look at the perspective that "Punk" is an overall term, and something like "Emo" is a sub-genre of punk.  There are other ways you can look at it).

This is from the Japanese wiki:
Kote kei (thick, heavy) - what you think of when you talk about the genre of visual.  Term came about as an opposite to soft kei.  Under that there are two types - black kei and white kei.  Black kei have dark feelings to the rythum and speedy melodies, white kei aims to be more melodious and transparent.

Oshare kei (stylish) - Clothing styles based on female fashion, became popular in the indies scene especially 2002 - 2004.  Said to have originated with Baroque.  The style is a colorful, pop sound which tends to use a "shuffle rythum".

Koteosa kei - with the success of oshare kei, in 2005, bands started fusing both the look and sound of Kote kei and oshare kei together into a new fusion genre.  Examples are Vidoll, 12012, Eimy.

Then it goes on and on xD~ quicker on the rest:

Kurofuku kei (black suit): LUNA SEA、BUCK-TICK、ZI:KILL、Kuroyume

Soft Visual kei: Siam Shade, Glay, Sophia, Janne Da Arc

Nagoya kei (Nagoya is a place): (older:) Kuruyume, Laputa, Rouage, Fanatic Crisis. (Newer:) Deadman, Gullet, Lynch, Deathgaze, Sugar, -Oz-  (Originally used to describe bands in Nagoya, now used to describe bands influenced by these bands regardless of where they are).

Misshitsu Kei (General term used for bands that belonged to the label Misshitus Neurosis, means a room that is secret or cannot be entered): Cali=/=gari, Mucc, Plastic Tree

Chikashitsu kei (basement): Term comes from a concert in 1997, Tokyo Chikashitsu and includes Denba kei and Angura kei.  Includes bands like Mucc, Inugami Circus Dan, Guruguru Eigakan, and Metronome.

There are others on there too - this is a wiki so don't take this as official.

Remember: Genre and Style are not the same thing.  Historically genre is a term used by journalists,who were trained to write, but not to study music.  Originally they made genre distinctions through lyrics - Rock was about drugs and sex and jail, pop was about more innocent things and love.   Originally pop music was "beneath" critical study, which continued to be concerned with "art" music which was "serious."  That is why it was covered and written about by journalists with no music training - someone had to do it.  Some people consider rock to be a sub-genre of pop music - when you take pop to mean simply "popular music of a culture".   

The only difference between Rites of Spring (early emo band) and other punk bands was the lyrics, and yet they are considered a different genre - mainly because of the themes and lyrics, not the sound.


Title: Re: What Visual Kei truly is...
Post by: Tsunetako on October 21, 2007, 05:53:32 AM
I JUST looked at the Japanese Wiki and there is no mention of "koteosa kei". What the fuck? Don't spread bullshit.


Title: Re: What Visual Kei truly is...
Post by: JX on October 21, 2007, 06:38:27 AM
http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E3%83%B4%E3%82%A3%E3%82%B8%E3%83%A5%E3%82%A2%E3%83%AB%E7%B3%BB

コテオサ
    2005年頃からの主流であり、お洒落系が進化したものと捉えられる。外見・音楽ともにコテヴィジュアル系とお洒落系を融合させたような形態を取っている。ヴィドールや12012、前者とは少し違うがえぃみ→☆などが、これにあたると思われる。


Title: Re: What Visual Kei truly is...
Post by: klavierbarrette on October 21, 2007, 06:40:33 AM
i always wondered wtf to call ayabie, lolita23q, vidoll, etc.  i'm putting ayabie and lolita in this because i do NOT consider them oshare.  they're like borderline or were at one time 'sort of' oshare. of course, this is my opinion

@vess
that picard looks liek an alienz!!! or more like when he was a vulcan in that one ep D:


Title: Re: What Visual Kei truly is...
Post by: Tsunetako on October 21, 2007, 06:51:51 AM
http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E3%83%B4%E3%82%A3%E3%82%B8%E3%83%A5%E3%82%A2%E3%83%AB%E7%B3%BB

コテオサ
    2005年頃からの主流であり、お洒落系が進化したものと捉えられる。外見・音楽ともにコテヴィジュアル系とお洒落系を融合させたような形態を取っている。ヴィドールや12012、前者とは少し違うがえぃみ→☆などが、これにあたると思われる。

~*i'm retarded*~


Title: Re: What Visual Kei truly is...
Post by: klavierbarrette on October 21, 2007, 08:04:42 AM
you really are, its also in the english wiki

google it man wtf


Title: Re: What Visual Kei truly is...
Post by: JX on October 21, 2007, 08:32:43 AM
No worries - though I just googled it an all these English-speaking fangirls are calling it a style of Decora  ???  So now I have to see what else I can find about it!

http://www.xxice09.x0.com/free/vol8.htm#k

That is a nice fan site with definitions of vk-related terms, it doesn't have koteosa on it though.


Title: Re: What Visual Kei truly is...
Post by: Culo on October 21, 2007, 09:35:16 AM
nice link JX, thanks.

アンチオサレ系イズム!!!


Title: Re: What Visual Kei truly is...
Post by: Vessicator on October 21, 2007, 09:40:57 AM
we need to urbandictionary this shit. seriously.


Title: Re: What Visual Kei truly is...
Post by: MR. Potato on December 04, 2007, 02:42:21 PM
where is my bike? >:(


Title: Re: What Visual Kei truly is...
Post by: odoroboujohn on April 07, 2009, 11:49:33 AM
It's on your head. ;)


Title: Re: What Visual Kei truly is...
Post by: kyogasuki on March 05, 2010, 09:25:13 AM
"Visual Kei" as far as appearance go seems to be given to any band that dresses out of the "norm".  This could be anything from XJapan's wild style to the more well-known an.cafe's "omg i am a rainbow!" style.  When it comes to the style of music, you really can't listen to an artist and say "yeah, they are VK" since their musical styles vary greatly (again, XJapan and an.cafe as examples).  I think it is more of a label for a band...the kind of label that once you get, you are stuck with it lol.  Think about Dir en grey -- they started out with some crazy outfits (random: I love kyo's look for macabre!) but as time progressed, they faded out of it.  Now they are dressing (it appears) in whatever they pull out of their closet that morning.  Yet, many people will still (and probably always will) classify them as a VK band.

If I went through my music collection (400+ artists) and labeled them as either VK or not VK (based on what fans and biographies describe them as), 99% would get that label. 

Final conclusion:  It is a label given based on a band's clothing/makeup/hair style, and not the music they play.